Result from P&O!!!

No more false information on P&O ships that was supplied by HMRC. Seemingly HMRC don’t have any of the correct version … how surprising, l mean it only changed 6 months ago!

Dear Mr #######
Further to my email of 24 June I can now inform you that following further discussion and Advice from HMRC, I have decided to withdraw this leaflet from all of the P&O ships until such time as they are able to supply the corrected updated version.
Once again thank you for taking the time and the trouble to contact us on this matter. 
Regards
 
Mike O’Dwyer
Onboard Services Director 

Choose your words carefully!

l was once asked what would l deem the most important piece of advice when shopping for your tobacco/cigarettes in the EU and then being stopped by HMRC ( I refer to the legitimate shopper and not Mr l go everyday to Calais man)..Without a doubt it would be ‘Choose your words carefully’.

Let me explain, when stopped by HMRC you will be interrogated interviewed. First informally and then formally.
Every word you use has the potential of being used against you … and believe me HMRC will, if given the opportunity. lt’s up to you not to give them that opportunity.

The first thing you have to realise that despite how friendly the HMRC Officer seems … he is not your friend. Got that? … he is not your friend. Mr HMRC Officer wants you to think he is because he wants you to rabbit on because every word you utter has that potential of being used against you. Mr HMRC Officer wants to take your goods off you and wants YOU to help him do it. See, l told you he wasn’t your friend.

So what do you do? When you are first stopped, ask them why they are stopping you. Make them answer because they are not allowed to stop travellers at random for excise goods. This doesn’t mean that even if they do admit it was random that you will be free to go with your goods but it may come in useful later if your goods are confiscated and it goes to appeal. Especially if you accidentally had your mobile on voice record. Make them tell you for what reasons they stopped you or give it a damn good try.

After this you will probably be ushered into one of their screening interrogation interview areas. lf you’ve been partying whilst away, had too much to drink the night previous etc, got a hangover and suffering from lack of sleep, feel sick … tell them! lf you need the toilet … tell them. lf you need a drink of water … tell them. lf they refuse … insist and keep insisting.

lf your luggage is not x-rayed and they ask you what’s in it … ask for the officers id first . You need to know that they are really HMRC officers,don’t you? You don’t want someone in fancy dress asking you questions do you? When id is verified and they ask you the question again just reply  ‘nothing illegal, just personal’. Ask them what they are looking for. lf they don’t answer specifically … ask again. Remember, you are doing nothing illegal and Mr HMRC Officers are stopping you from going on your way. They have to tell you why they are stopping you. Again, give it a damn good try.

Eventually you will end up opening your luggage to show it’s contents and be at the same stage as if your luggage had been through the x-ray. When they now ask you about the contents, tell them what’s in it and they are your personal goods. At this stage they will try and ask you more questions …. this is the informal interrogation interview. lf you answer any questions here they will NOT be recorded or written down. Anything you say will be interpreted by them alone at a later stage if your goods are confiscated and it goes to appeal. lt will be to HMRC’s benefit and not yours because it will have become what is known as a ‘substantial statement’ … not good for you!

So, don’t answer their questions yet until you have demanded and got a formal interrogation interview (it’s coming anyway). Demand it till you get it. Don’t take ‘no’ for an answer. Your reason for demanding this is that you want nothing left to misinterpretation. Your goods are on the line here, protect them. You are not refusing to answer questions but refusing to answer questions ‘off record’ that may be used against you.

You will eventually get to the formal part of your ordeal one way or another. They will read you your rights (HMRC call it a commerciality statement …. unsure if there is such a word but hey ho) which will end in ‘you can leave anytime’. You can indeed leave but not with your goods. Don’t be intimidated by veiled and not so veiled threats of court cases and prison. You have nothing to be afraid of, you’ve done nothing wrong! lf it’s not the same officer that you got id from … ask them again for identification. They will then ask you if you have any medical conditions that will effect your interrogation interview. lf there is tell them, if not say ‘no medical condition’ but don’t forget to mention your hangover, you drinkers you!

Personally l’d ask for this interrogation interview to be recorded but as yet have never got one. They just refuse to do it but my request does go down in their notebook … l make sure of it.

The rest of the questions come in no particular order and sometimes not all are used. When answering them, answer them factually and brief … don’t explain and make it into a bloody story. The more information you give them, the more they have to work with. Remember l said they want YOU to help them confiscate your goods? Don’t forget it.

They will question you about your finances … mortgages, utility bills etc etc. l can never answer these because l simply don’t know … they are all standing orders/direct debits and all l know at the end of the month is that l have so much in my bank account. I simply don’t know and that’s it, l have to pay them is all l know. Take advantage of credit cards if you can, l often use a credit card ‘personal reserve’ when available. lt
By using credit card/loans, your personal finances have little relevance as it becomes a simple matter of economics …. spend say £2K …. save £3.6K (based on personal use of 2 cartons a week, years supply 100 cartons, L&B £20 a carton EU, £56 a carton Tesco UK).Oh, and keep your receipts!

Another question is about  how many you smoke a day. Not something you pay particular attention to in life but failure to ‘know’ is seen by HMRC as suspect and will be held against you. Do your maths people, it’s as simple as that! l smoke about 60 a day (how can it be a definite figure?) so that’s approx 2 cartons a week therefore a years supply is approx 100 cartons. lf you smoke 30 a day that’d workout at 50 cartons approx for a years supply. You ‘roll your own’ guys do the same with your tobacco. They also come out with ‘Do you have any cigarettes on you now?’…  not forgetting a lighter of course. Same goes for you ‘roll your own’ guys but with the added request ‘Can you roll one now?’
Do l have to tell you about this?????

lf they try the shelf life of tobacco or cigarettes ploy of saying it’s 6 months or so ask them why they are giving you false information. Say … . ‘Are they lying or just misinformed? HMRC know the shelf life of tobacco/cigarettes is years and it is on record so why don’t they know?’

Questions about gifts, hence the mixed brands you brought? We all know when Xmas is and we all know when our family members birthdays are. Some of you may just know the month. Do yourself a favour and carry a ‘present list’ with you. You can buy for your wife, you are a married couple with shared expenses, bank accounts etc etc. Can’t definitely vouch for gay couples but l doubt if they dare question that because it would raise the question of gay rights, victimisation, homophobia etc etc.

Questions about how many times you’ve travelled. This infuriates me! … they’ve taken your passport and the airline/ferry company has already given them the details. Why the hell are they asking me? They already know. Same goes for if you are travelling with anyone … they already know, you checked in together etc! To avoid questions about who paid for the travel, please pay for your own and not your mates as well … even if he did give you the cash. HMRC don’t understand the concept of you paying for your mate and him paying you in cash. Don’t try this on your wife though! 🙂  As for number of times travelled, HMRC fail on purpose to grasp the fact that going abroad for a weekend in the EU is statistically cheaper than going away in the UK. They insinuate every trip abroad is a ciggie shopping trip. Another piece of advice here, when you do go away make it a couple of nights. You’ve paid for the flights etc so another night won’t break the bank and it’d be a waste if you didn’t in my opinion. Enjoy the experience, see the sights and take lots of photos (useful when needed), go to pubs restaurants where you can smoke … enjoy life!

When answering all of the above, keep your answers short and factual. Remain calm at all times and don’t get angry and threatening. Don’t rush your answers … take your time. lf you don’t know an answer simply say ‘l don’t know’ … do not try and make one up that you can’t back up because it will probably come back and bite you. lf you answer a  question and they then simply look at you and say nothing … don’t fill in the silence. This is a trick used by detectives when interviewing suspects. People are a strange, they feel a need to break the silence and so end up talking more … don’t do it. Wait for the next question. Remember l told you that they want YOU to help them confiscate your goods? Don’t forget! You people suffering with the hangovers etc … make comments about it through the ordeal with HMRC so it goes down in their notebooks. Ask for drinks, ask for smoke break, ask for toilet. lt all has to go down in their notebook. There may be other questions but the above are the main ones. Mr HMRC Officer is not an expert on questioning, they are merely using a formula that works for them in the majority of cases. This is because travellers are simply not prepared … don’t be one of them! lt’s sad that in this day and age you have to prepare yourself simply to go shopping and get bargains but HMRC have made you do it. You are deemed guilty by HMRC simply because you went shopping!

At the end of the questioning they will then go away and write it up. l’ve always tried to make them write the questions and my answers down during the interrogation interview.Write down question, then write down my answer, write down next question and so on. l demand it to be factual and not what the HMRC remember it to be. They will then ask you to read it and sign it as a factual document of the ordeal. l can almost never read
their writing so l get them to read it to me. Anything l don’t agree with l get it changed. l then attempt to read it myself. l then sign it with ‘I have read the notes and they are not my actual words and therefore not completely true’. Surprisingly HMRC have never picked up on this, either with me or anyone else. I know my writing is very scrawly and almost unreadable to anyone but myself.HMRC are so used to you obeying them that they can’t see that you signed it different to what they requested. lt simply does not cross their minds or eyes, they see what they told you to write and nothing more.

l’m not being devious here but how on earth can you sign it and say it’s a factual account of your ordeal? You’ve been questioned for a long time so it’s just downright impossible. Yet, if it ever comes to appeal/court, HMRC’s notebook account will be taken as factual. Of course if they recorded everything there wouldn’t be that problem, would there?

Your ordeal is almost over now. Mr HMRC Officer then goes away to make a decision  on whether to confiscate your goods or not. Oh, l forgot, before HMRC begin your formal questioning, ask the person who is questioning you if they will be the one making the decision and not some other person in an office making it wholly on the version given by the questioning HMRC Officer. You want the person who makes the decision to be one who’s questioning you, don’t you?

You then get the decision and leave with or without your goods (make sure you get a notice of the goods taken from you. Check the amounts are correct). lf it’s without … you will be going on to he appeal but that’s for another time.

They have little or nothing to keep your goods because … You chose your words well.

p.s. You can switch off your recording on the phone now. 🙂

All docs re:- 155.4 cartons of 200 L&B (31,080), 7.5kg Samson tobacco confiscated and returned on appeal, 2007

I want to thank the people who have sent me their stories and documents regarding their experiences of HMRC, l realise it’s a big decision to make and for that l again thank you. Also, if anyone knows of any solicitors that has represented them in appeals l’d be obliged if you would furnish me with their details. lt’s difficult to find a solicitor that will represent you in these matters. Why? … l don’t know but if we can put a list together it will help people who have had their goods confiscated and are appealing or have failed their appeal and are then going to court … every little helps! :).

117 cartons(20,340) cigarettes, 1.6kg tobacco, 1 blue film all confiscated … then returned to shopper after appeal. 2000

l’ll have the written appeal in a few days so l’ll put that up as well. You’ll note that the HMRC Officer put the date down as November when it was date stamped October. Also he put Obscene Video Tape when he hadn’t even seen it. The shopper refused to sign the seizure document.Note also that the goods are mixed L&B, Superkings and Samson tobacco.

Update

Finally got the appeal and HMRC replies but there’s a hell of a lot of it so l’ll give you the summary and put the originals up later when personal details have been taken out. 

Mr M was stopped at Liverpool airport with the above amount. Mr M had chosen to fly to Spain for his cigarettes as they were far cheaper than France as indeed they still are today. The Dover-Calais run is not for cigarettes but is still ok for tobacco but Belgium is preferred. Here ‘up North’ people use the Hull-Zeebrugge ferry which is P&O but in those days was North Sea Ferries but as Mr M wanted primarily cigarettes and not tobacco, the ferry was not an option.

When stopped by HMRC Officer Kirkbride, Mr M soon discovered that despite Mr M being totally legal and supplying the correct answers Officer Kirkbride was intent on confiscating Mr M’s goods no matter what. This he indeed did but Mr M refused to sign the notice as it was not factual  in his opinion. Note, these were the days of the guidelines of 800 cigarettes (4 cartons)

Mr M then appealed to HMRC giving details of why the amount of goods he bought was for personal use, details of gifts, details of finance and so on. Mr M also put in a formal letter of complaint against Officer Kikbride.

Mr M won his appeal and got a letter of apology from HMRC. HMRC thought that was the end of the matter but Mr M pursued his complaint and eventually the outcome was a response from the Director of North HMRC. In it he stated that Mr M was correct in his complaint and the procedures used by HMRC officers were wrong and as a result HMRC officers would be re-trained. Mr M also got apologies from this Director

Mr M continues his shopping from the EU and l thank him for allowing me to post his documentation on this. Too many are afraid of the HMRC because of the myths surrounding them when, in fact, they are akin to the Wizard of Oz. 

Update

 Sent edited docs back for approval of Mr M. In meantime got approved docs back for another confiscation, appeal and return of goods

Watch this space!

Going to be busy organising, scanning, transcribing for a few days but l shall be posting the following shortly:-

UK shopping couple travelling circa Jan 2007 from Spain had total of 155.4 cartons of 200 L&B (31,080), 7.5kg Samson tobacco confiscated at Luton Airport … returned upon appeal (no court case)

Same UK couple travelling circa Oct 2004 from Spain had total of  98.8 cartons of 200 L&B (19,760) confiscated at Glasgow airport …. returned upon appeal (no  court case)

Single UK  person travelling circa October  2000 from Spain had total of  117 cartons of 200 L&B / Superkings (23,400) , 1.6kg Samson tobacco (plus 1 obscene video tape 🙂  )confiscated at Liverpool airport … all returned upon appeal (no court case)

Single UK person travelling from Spain circa July 2008. Complete court case incl HMRC officers notebook and his interrogation notes and answers given << going to be really interesting. Can show how they try and trap you and then we’ll show how you should answer. Outcome … goods returned to shopper

Further reply from P&O

This is in response to initial letter and first reply. lt’s gone from the CEO Helen Deeble to Communications Director Chris Laming and finally Onboard Services Director Mike O’Dwyer.

P&O’s reply

Dear #######
Thank you for your letter dated 8th June, which has been forwarded on to me by the Communications Director to respond concerning your HMRC queries.
Having noted the contents of your letter I cannot disagree with the sentiment.  I was aware of the changes in the UK guidelines in January 2010, and that the HMRC website changed in February to reflect these new guidelines.
We have an obligation to make our customers aware that there are still restrictions on the amounts they can bring into the UK (and the EU), but ultimately the responsibility for understanding HMRC UK rules and regulations rests with the traveller; however we have already requested the new HMRC leaflet, and have sent another reminder today to HMRC to enable us to display the leaflet accordingly.
I am pleased to note that when you questioned our staff onboard they remained courteous and I will remind them that any questions that our passengers have in relation to the HMRC regulations should be directed to HMRC.
I will be forwarding a copy of your letter to HMRC headquarters
Once again thank you for bringing this matter to my attention.

Regards
Mike O’Dwyer
On Board Services Director

Oh dear Mr O’Dwyer, you knew of the changes in Jan 2010 and yet you did nothing to see that the information on your ships was updated? You allowed the false information to be displayed on your ships that you knew would be read by your own passengers …. poor show Mr O’Dwyer.

Yes it is the responsibility of your pax to understand HMRC’s regs but it would help your pax if you displayed the correct info!

 There has been no mention of the sign displayed in the onboard shop that is 2 and a half years out of date and no confirmation that the false information has been removed. P&O are certainly not Hoverspeed when it comes to looking after their pax welfare. They seem to want to be HMRC’s friend and not the pax.

Back to the CEO it seems. 🙂

p.s. pax = passengers 🙂

FFS! … Incompetence or lying devious b##tards! PART 3

Reply from FCO!                          see  Part 1 Part 2

Thank you for your email of 13 June 2010 which was received to the Consular section of our Embassy in Riga. I am sorry to hear about incorrect customs information displayed on the travel advice section of the FCO website that covers Latvia, and have now ensured that the situation is corrected with regards to the personal allowances of cigarettes from Latvia to the UK.

The FCO places great importance on providing accurate and up to date information on our web pages. This is particularly true of FCO Travel Advice as it assists British nationals to make informed choices on travel destinations and behaviour that can ultimately lead to a safer and more pleasant trip. I am sorry that on this occasion incorrect information was displayed.
I understand that the changes in customs regulations only came to our attention on 21 May, despite having been in place since 1 January. Despite investigation, I have been unable to track down where the break in communication was, but the travel advice of the various countries involved were duly updated once it came to our attention. Unfortunately, as you rightly point out, the Latvian travel advice page was not updated along with the others. This was an administrative oversight and has now been corrected. 

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to write to us with your concerns, and please be assured that we have rectified the matter and will ensure greater vigilance on this matter in the future.
Yours sincerely
V Bates
Baltic Desk Officer
Foreign & Commonwealth Office

You’ve got to laugh at the incompetence they readily admit to with no shame whatsoever. Afterall, why should they care about the welfare of UK citizens in other countries … it isn’t as though that’s what they are there for, is it?. Wait a minute …

The Captain … Daytrippers forum

lt seems the ‘Captain‘ from the Daytrippers forum thinks l am a scam artist. He doesn’t post here or get in touch with me directly … he just decides to pass his judgement without knowing or seemingly bothering to find the facts. Sounds as though he’d be a prime candidate for the HMRC.

The facts of the matter are:-

1. The consultancy is not a source of income, l earn my money from a different industry entirely and am free to pick and choose when and where l work. All l require is to cover travel cost, nothing more.

2. If someone wishes to use the consultancy, l will discuss their requirements and look at the viabilty of such. lf l think they are on unsafe ground, l will tell them so.

3. lf l think it is viable, l will then go into fine detail as everyone will have different circumstances.

4. lf the shopping trip still looks viable after that, it will be the customers choice whether he/she goes ahead or not.

5.lf it goes ahead, they will book their own travel and not me. No money is taken from them at this point whatsoever. l shall book my own travel.

6. l’ll recommend accommodation and places to buy their goods but it is not obligatory. lt’s their choice. Still no money will be taken from them. …. good scam eh?

7. We travel and l give them documentation regarding our own history re our run-ins with HMRC. l also coach them on the questions HMRC may ask.

8. We arrive at destination and after they’ve purchased their goods and got them do they then pay my travel costs.

9. We return together with myself as back-up in case stopped by HMRC.

10. If they purchase, say, 6 months supply, l will not allow them to travel with me again for 6 months or if they are confident enough to do it themselves after 6 months … good for them.

Nothing is guaranteed in life but you can increase the odds in your favour. Whether a customer thinks they are good enough is for them to decide but it won’t have cost them a penny if they decide not to go … some scam, eh?

lf l’ve missed anything, l apologise and if l remember l’ll add it later. l don’t care whether people use the consultancy or not … it’s up to them. My fight is with the injustices and blatant robbery commited by a large number of HMRC officers. Anything l can do to right this …even in some small way , is worth it. l’m at the time of life where my time is my own and am financially stable. l’ll give what l can freely but l’m not that well off to become a bloody charity. The effort l’m putting into this is not small and l’m putting my head above the parapet ….  unlike others.

Oh, and Captain, may l refer you to the reply in Arkell-vs-Pressdram

Daytripper.net … tales of woe

Daytripper is a good site for info but you have to search for it, l found. One particular section is short accounts of tales of woe (scroll down to ‘Your experiences’)

Reading them makes me ashamed of my own country. But here’s the thing … we are allowing them to do it. There is very rarely any record of the stop by HMRC, it is only the word of the harassed shopper against HMRC.

ln this day and age of technology, this need not be so. There are numerous recording devices on the open market … and not only audio but video as well. Prices are more than reasonable and a good device can be purchased for under £20. They come in all forms … pens, keyfobs, sunglasses and such. lt’s about time that shoppers started to use them. Post the videos on youtube etc or the audio on blogs.Let the world really see what is going on.

We certainly can’t depend on investigative journalism, in fact l wonder if it actually exists anymore. So people, let’s ‘accidentally’ record these HMRC Officers that think it’s perfectly ok to rob legitimate UK Shoppers by any means they can.

Time for action, folks!

27kg of tobacco (540 x 50gm pouches) bought by EU Shopper, stopped by UK Customs and still brought them home!

l’m going to blog about this very shortly. l’m waiting for a scan of the official HMRC/UKBA form he got issued with stating the amount he brought back home. Thought that would be a little more impressive than just blogging about it. lt will validate the post m’thinks. 🙂 Ties in with the P&O post

Update

As some of you will have noticed … l got it slightly wrong in the original post. The total is 27kg not 22.5kg which amounts to 540 x 50gm pouches. l’d missed the extra 4.5kg. 🙂 Now rectified

There’s a great deal of hearsay/rumours/false information on the net regarding what you can and what you can’t bring back for personal use from the EU. Most of it seems to come from what people have heard from ‘the man in the pub’ (those that are still open) or the ‘failed’ shopper who was totally unprepared when stopped by UK Customs.

The legitimate shopper is wrongly associated by default with the shoppers that are not legitimate. HMRC see no difference between shoppers at the border … period. lt is up to the legitimate shopper to be prepared for this. lf he doesn’t he will be like a sheep in a pack of wolves. The rights or wrongs of this do matter but it is simply a fact of life that at the moment this is the way it is. Will it change? … l doubt it.

So what you are left with is a potentially threatening situation that you have to deal with. You will be spending not an unsubstantial sum of money in order to save yourself a similar amount. lt’s just a case of basic economics. l find it strange that many people (mostly non-smokers) can’t see the logic of this. Yet, if you say to them ‘If you could buy petrol at 50p a litre and can bring back as much as you like for personal use, how much would you bring back?’ … a light seems to be turned on and understanding then comes to them. This then puts into context the HMRC’s ‘guidelines’ … using the petrol example, if HMRC said their guideline was 160 litres yet you could afford and transport 1600 litres … everyone would bring 1600 litres. There’s no difference when purchasing tobacco/cigarettes!

There are some HMRC Officers that understand this but they are in the minority l’ve found. Too often is the mindset that they must try and confiscate everything that is brought into the UK regardless of the circumstances. To this end, these officers will try to find any excuse to do this. One of the most widely used is ‘How often do you travel or have travelled?’. This is based on the assumption that everytime you travel abroad you bring back large quantities of tobacco/alcohol.

Or, put another way,  if you go to Asda and buy 2 bottles of whisky … everytime you go back to Asda you buy 2 bottles of whisky. lt doesn’t matter if you have to pop-in to Asda for just a bottle of milk … they assume you bought 2 bottles of whisky!

Travel abroad is cheap and in many cases cheaper than a weekend away in the UK and so people take advantage of it. They see and enjoy the sites and cultures of other countries. lt widens their understanding of different nationalities and in so doing removes a lot of prejudices. This is a good thing and there can be nothing negative about travelling abroad. Except of course … if you are a smoker! Your travels abroad will be held against you … period! Your motives will be questioned, your finances will be questioned, your employment will be questioned, your relationships will be questioned … and all because you are a smoker!

lt’s as though you have sewn on the arm of your jacket a symbol that ostracizes you from the rest of society. You are harassed, intimidated and victimised for being a smoker. The only sympathy for your plight comes from other smokers. Your rights and freedom to travel are constantly infringed. Whole coachloads are marched off coaches to be interrogated interviewed. lf you dare argue back they will interrogate interview you further … till you are blackmailed to either leaving your goods or missing your coach and then left stranded. lt matters not that you could even be a WW2 vet that fought against such tyranny … you are a smoker! Worse still is that if you are in your own vehicle it could be also confiscated simply on the whim of a HMRC officer … and left stranded in another country. This is a whim mind, no evidence is necessary … they simply only have to ‘believe’ that you are guilty. The ‘believe’ scenario is nothing more than an attempt at justification for any form of victimisation they deem to inflict upon you. Why? … because you are a smoker!

Don’t let them do this! Fight back!  lf you are going abroad to buy your alcohol/tobacco … go prepared and not with just a hope you won’t get stopped. Question them, ask for their name and number (often covered up by flak jacket), don’t be intimidated, question everything and most of all, don’t be subservient. All it does is empower them more. Take control from them … you do have rights so use them. They may put over to you that they have the power of life and death … but they haven’t. They only have if you let them so it’s up to you not to allow them to intimidate you. lf you don’t know how to prepare yourself … find someone who does and learn from them.

lt’s up to you!

HMRC may even give you a certificate proving you know your rights … see pic! 🙂